Curse

neoteo · Nov 01, 2005, 04:58 AM // 04:58

becose if you didnt have a pvp char creation tool , all you pvp players had to play pve before going to pvp ... IMO it would be much fair , and would not separate the game so much ...

Akhilleus · Nov 01, 2005, 07:50 AM // 07:50

[QUOTE=Draco Hunt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

And about this. this realy makes me angry.

PvP'ers earn the favor so people can get the fissure armor. If evry one would get the same evrything is more balanced. This is not so much a fight about the armor. It's a fight beetween PvE and PvP and who is the best. Wel a wake-up call for all of you. We are all people doing the thing we do best and like best. Dont be greedy and stuborn just let evry one deserve the same things.

A: you're misquoting who wrote that.
B: once again, more often than not, the hoh is held by GUILD teams w/ TS servers and the such, the notion that no pve chars play pvp, is pure conjecture.

NatalieD · Nov 01, 2005, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Wait, I'm confused. What do guild teams have to do with whether or not they're using PVP characters?

Xenrath · Nov 01, 2005, 09:49 AM // 09:49

I like the idea if you want it, you have to get it in PvE first. Once you put in the time and effort to get it in PvE it then becomes available in PvP.

Kampfkeks · Nov 01, 2005, 10:13 AM // 10:13

The longer this thread develops, the more clearly one can see the real problem about this whole thing. This is no longer about unlocking stuff for PVP but has instead turned into an annoying non monk flameball.
The real problem as i see it happening here and everywhere is the PVPers common belief that they are by far superior to a "lousy PVE Player". Some folks should be honest. They don't really want this armor, but instead they want everything just because in their opinion they are superior to PVE Players. They are the better part of the mankind in their thinking.

I've got a feeling of King Nothing floating around this thread.

There really is only ONE crowd who is "King" in this game. And no... not the PVPers. You're not better or more skilled than anyone. But it is also neither the PVE Crowd. It is those folks who do both and have respect for both sides. Come on, both sides, think about why there is such a thing as PVE and PVP. Not because the Developers think about one part as being more important to the other. They are there because they BOTH are the very essence of Guild Wars.

However that being said (sad too :P) i don't agree on the both loosing their very essence. See, i brought the example about fame just because i KNOW that most PVPers would be REALLY furious if the "inferior" PVE Crowd had a way of gaining Fame by playing PVE. Fame is also one of the things the PVP Players have for them. And only for them. If a PVE Player wants his new emote he will have to PVP for it. That is fine.
However the 15k Armors and the Fissure Armor is the PVE Version of the PVP Emote. You can compare them to Rank 3 and Rank 9.

What is so hard to understand about that concept?

/rank for PVP Players
Armors for PVE Players

Whomever wants something from the other side, will have to PLAY the other side. And that is good the way it is.

=HT=Ingram · Nov 01, 2005, 10:28 AM // 10:28

OK Back on topic

Something I was discussing with a person of influence today was putting a Forge master crafter in the Hall of Heroes Vault. I mean your stuck in there sometimes with nothing to do... it would be interesting to allow a Hall of Heroes crafter to modify some armor or weapons as you wish with gold and faction as cost... maybe ecto and shards too like fissure armor to make the PvE people happy...

Just for something to do in there... 1/2 the time its just running around with nothing to do killing time...

lyra_song · Nov 01, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

OK Back on topic

Something I was discussing with a person of influence today was putting a Forge master crafter in the Hall of Heroes Vault. I mean your stuck in there sometimes with nothing to do... it would be interesting to allow a Hall of Heroes crafter to modify some armor or weapons as you wish with gold and faction as cost... maybe ecto and shards too like fissure armor to make the PvE people happy...

Just for something to do in there... 1/2 the time its just running around with nothing to do killing time...

Best idea in this whole thread...

Beat the HoH...meet the Eternal Forgemaster....what happens in a batle begins while your talking to him though?

Draco Hunt · Nov 01, 2005, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

The longer this thread develops, the more clearly one can see the real problem about this whole thing. This is no longer about unlocking stuff for PVP but has instead turned into an annoying non monk flameball.
The real problem as i see it happening here and everywhere is the PVPers common belief that they are by far superior to a "lousy PVE Player". Some folks should be honest. They don't really want this armor, but instead they want everything just because in their opinion they are superior to PVE Players. They are the better part of the mankind in their thinking.

I've got a feeling of King Nothing floating around this thread.

There really is only ONE crowd who is "King" in this game. And no... not the PVPers. You're not better or more skilled than anyone. But it is also neither the PVE Crowd. It is those folks who do both and have respect for both sides. Come on, both sides, think about why there is such a thing as PVE and PVP. Not because the Developers think about one part as being more important to the other. They are there because they BOTH are the very essence of Guild Wars.

However that being said (sad too :P) i don't agree on the both loosing their very essence. See, i brought the example about fame just because i KNOW that most PVPers would be REALLY furious if the "inferior" PVE Crowd had a way of gaining Fame by playing PVE. Fame is also one of the things the PVP Players have for them. And only for them. If a PVE Player wants his new emote he will have to PVP for it. That is fine.
However the 15k Armors and the Fissure Armor is the PVE Version of the PVP Emote. You can compare them to Rank 3 and Rank 9.

What is so hard to understand about that concept?

/rank for PVP Players
Armors for PVE Players

Whomever wants something from the other side, will have to PLAY the other side. And that is good the way it is.

How About if we make Fame and rank available for PvE for certain achievements(like completing missions completing quests etc.)

And the 15K and Fow armor available for PvP by unlocking or purchase for a certain ammount of faction. Also i've seen someone say that maybe they can get it by earning special PvP crafting materials and you get to a special PvP crafter after winning HoH or something like that. Maybe that wil work.
If both sides can be rewarded the same evryone wil be happy again and go back to playing the game.

boxterduke · Nov 01, 2005, 03:47 PM // 15:47

/NO
You already unlock all the items u want with faction and thats one thing we have over you.
Play PvE to get 15K

Morganas · Nov 01, 2005, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxterduke

/NO
You already unlock all the items u want with faction and thats one thing we have over you.
Play PvE to get 15K

We do play pve to get 15k, we're just peeved that we can't use the armor for pvp characters. (please no more suggesting that pvpers use pve character, I'm pretty sure it's been well addressed they can't)

Quote:

Originally Posted by neoteo

becose if you didnt have a pvp char creation tool , all you pvp players had to play pve before going to pvp ... IMO it would be much fair , and would not separate the game so much ...

If this were done, you'd see all diversity in pvp end. Nobody could make an innovative build for pvp. If it took days of play to make a worthy pvp character, it would be stupid to use anything but cookie cutters. There would be a tiny handful of super hardcore guild trying new things, and everyone else copying what worked, and being months behind in the process. And before someone says it, no that's not the status quo. There are plenty of average guilds who innovate with builds quite regularly, hell, there are lots of pickup groups who do the same.

The climate of strategic change would slow down until you no longer saw flavors of the month, but flavors of the year.

dargon · Nov 01, 2005, 06:24 PM // 18:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

We do play pve to get 15k, we're just peeved that we can't use the armor for pvp characters. (please no more suggesting that pvpers use pve character, I'm pretty sure it's been well addressed they can't)

Naw, it's been pretty well addressed that they won't, not that they can't.

Morganas · Nov 01, 2005, 07:46 PM // 19:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Naw, it's been pretty well addressed that they won't, not that they can't.

Did you not read the posts about character switching? There are only 4 character slots, that is not enough to cover every class combo. You cannot effectively pvp without being able to spontaneously create a character to suit your party, end of story. People who use rp characters in pvp are either just doing it casually, noobs, or so freaking hardcore that they raise a particular pve character up for pvp for a particular pve only item, and in this case they're still limiting themselves, assuming they used their other 3 slots for unlock rp characters.

Akhilleus · Nov 01, 2005, 08:14 PM // 20:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

We do play pve to get 15k, we're just peeved that we can't use the armor for pvp characters. (please no more suggesting that pvpers use pve character, I'm pretty sure it's been well addressed they can't)

oh? and why not?
a pve character is JUST as able to play pvp as a pvp char, and as for the morons who say they lack versatility, they are the people who are too lazy (or incompitent) to unlock skills in pve to get them for pvp (rather than using priests of balthazar) a pve char can do EVERYTHING a pvp char, and more, its simply an issue of lazyness. and THAT is why i have a problem with pvp-only players wanting 15k/fissure.
if you want it sooooooooo badly, delete your pvp char, make a pve char, level them up, get the skills you want for pvp, and work towards 15k/fissure. if you can do this, then all the more to you, you just proved that pves are fully capable of being pvp chars, if not, you provide one more solid reason 15k/fissure should NOT be available to pvp only players.

Quote:

The climate of strategic change would slow down until you no longer saw flavors of the month, but flavors of the year.

i think you are grossly mistaken.
"flavor of the month" builds are made possible due to pvp chars; every newbcake with a pvp gets introduced to the cookiecutter build, buys the 1 or 2 skills they may be missing, and equips thier brand new pvp char accordingly.
meanwhile, if most people used pve chars in pvp (i will concede the MAJORITY of pvp players use pvp chars, but the majority does not necissarily constitute the source of skill) by the time you leveled up your new pve character for the "flavor of the month" it would be an obsolete build; unless of course you already have every skill in the game unlocked (which quite a few people do), but like i said, most pvp-only players lack the patience to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Did you not read the posts about character switching? There are only 4 character slots, that is not enough to cover every class combo. You cannot effectively pvp without being able to spontaneously create a character to suit your party, end of story. People who use rp characters in pvp are either just doing it casually, noobs, or so freaking hardcore that they raise a particular pve character up for pvp for a particular pve only item, and in this case they're still limiting themselves, assuming they used their other 3 slots for unlock rp characters.

as for this spew of conjectural BS, lets say you're in a pvp-heavy guild.
you know your guild team wants 2 wars, 1 ranger, 1 necros, 1 ele, 1 mesmer and 2 monks, and though all the slots are filled, they need backup players for the ranger and mesmer slot in case the main players cant show up.
you go ahead and make a ranger and a mesmer, ascend them, yadda yadda, how is this person a newb for not having all 6 character classes?
its common knowledge that you can switch your seccondary WHENEVER you please after you complete the necissary missions, so if the person is dedicated the seccondary proffession or build isnt an issue; only the lack of 2 main character classes; which is a problem easily solved by either;
A: getting a seccond account (which MANY hardcore pvers posess)
B: basing your 4 initial character slots towards what is needed; ie if your guild has shortages of rangers eles monks and necros, you make an ele a monk a necro and a ranger.

pvps already have thier advantages, why cant you people be satisfied?
you already start at lvl 20
once you unlock a skill once, you need not unlock it again for the entire account
you start with max equipment FOR FREE
you dont have to have your character rushed/played through the game to be able to unlock skills/certain arenas
you can make a new character INSTANTLY, with every skills you have available to you in pve already at the ready; rather than having to level up and skill-up each and every individual character
and the list goes on.
while a pve character can meet most these tasks, it requires an absurd amount of work to do it; and you guys merely toss this needed time and effort out the window, as if its nothing.
in order to unlock every possible skill for any possible warrior build; you would have to unlock 450 skills, including 60 elite skills manually. and the regular skills through quests or the ember light chamber, trading conveniance for a ridiculous amount of gold/skillpoints.
while you can turn a pve char into a fully-moddable pvp char it takes a lot of time, effort and money.
so do NOT come here and try to say that you deserve 15k/fissure, because you would not have done 1/50th the work for FOUR pvp chars as it would take to make ONE truly versatile pve char.

Morganas · Nov 01, 2005, 08:39 PM // 20:39

You can't just role up some rp character and hope that that's what you're guild will need later. Just about the only safe character you could make would be monk, and not all builds require that even. Some builds are mostly rangers, some are mostly eles, some mostly warriors, and some require a bit of everything. You can never be sure that the two primaries you leave out won't be the ones that your pvp group, guild, whatever, will need you to play for whatever build they decide to run. It'd require your guild to be far larger than is feasible, and that you exclude people based on class.

I have three rp characters covering every class. To use them in pvp, I'd have to spend massive amounts of money changing runes before almost every pvp session, and I'd have to unlock almost every secondary skill for all of them (so I'd have to unlock every skill in the game 3 times, getting this many skill points on one character let alone three is absurd). And I'd still be unable to participate in many of the builds my group runs as anything but a monk, since I'm missing primaries.

I'll ignore the suggestion that buying a second account should be a prereq for pvping, that's absurd, and still doesn't take into account the obscene amount of time you'd have to invest on an absurd number of rp character before you could pvp.

Akhilleus · Nov 01, 2005, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

You can't just role up some rp character and hope that that's what you're guild will need later. Just about the only safe character you could make would be monk, and not all builds require that even. Some builds are mostly rangers, some are mostly eles, some mostly warriors, and some require a bit of everything. You can never be sure that the two primaries you leave out won't be the ones that your pvp group, guild, whatever, will need you to play for whatever build they decide to run. It'd require your guild to be far larger than is feasible, and that you exclude people based on class.

I have three rp characters covering every class. To use them in pvp, I'd have to spend massive amounts of money changing runes before almost every pvp session, and I'd have to unlock almost every secondary skill for all of them (so I'd have to unlock every skill in the game 3 times, getting this many skill points on one character let alone three is absurd). And I'd still be unable to participate in many of the builds my group runs as anything but a monk, since I'm missing primaries.

I'll ignore the suggestion that buying a second account should be a prereq for pvping, that's absurd, and still doesn't take into account the obscene amount of time you'd have to invest on an absurd number of rp character before you could pvp.

T H A N K Y O U
you just made my case for me.
you are admitting that pve chars take FAR more effort to work up to the level of pvp chars (though it CAN be done)
so please, tell me, why reward a LACK of effort with the same bounty as the "hard way out"?
should unemployed people get paid the same as people with steady jobs?
no. why? because they put less effort into making money. they still get some benifits, because we, as human beings, can respect the plights of others, but they do not get the full benifits of a productive member of society.
and just like an unemployed person should not recieve the full benifits of someone who earns thier possessions, nor should pvp-only people, UNWILLING NOT unable, but UNWILLING to put in the time, recieve the benifit of a pver willing to do just that.

the procecution rests.

muelon · Nov 01, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

OMG, ArenaNet nailed this one perfect.

Let PVP players unlock fame.
Let PVE players unlock 15K.

And never the two shall meet.

Or be like me.
My warrior with his 15K armor makes my heart sing.
My faction is way over 50,000 (spend it when it maxes)and my fame is growing.

Do it all.
Be the best u can be.

Symeon · Nov 01, 2005, 08:58 PM // 20:58

I posted in this topic earlier, but AHHH I can now see that it is getting way out of hand into an argument between PvPers and PvEers and people that are both. You're talking about effort. If you think about it everybody who plays a game puts effort into playing it. In Guild Wars PvP and PvE are not separate but they are different styles of gameplay so you can't talk about which side puts in more effort.
This argument for PvP armour is really just yet another plea for something more to be given PvPers. They pleaed before and they got faction and unlockable things. They pleaed again and they got priests of balthazaar in arenas. Now they don't have to do PvE at all - unless they want to get cool weapons, or cool armour.
Trouble is, it's not gonna happen. Everyone who is a full PvPer now really agrees that they have everything they could want to play without having to do PvE. Thing is, 15k and FOW armour ARE rewards for people who have played a lot. Maybe PvPers should get this kind of thing, but it is really too tedious a matter. To give PvPers these good armours would make them practically equal and the same as PvEers, and no I'm not contradicting myself, I'm saying that this would provoke an even bigger argument - PvEers are always gonna think they are better than PvPers because they played the rp game, they say they put a lot of effort in, so they are always gonna regard PvPers as people who do it because they can't be bothered to do the rp game. Now, we get to the point where a lot of PvEers have finished the game and are doing a lot of PvP. This is where they change their minds, and start to think PvPers aren't so bad after all, but they still regard themselves as having put more effort in. The argument continues, and it can't be ended. It's never gonna happen cos it's too small a thing.
None of what I said above is my own personal 'opinion', I am just stating the situation and the fact that it can't happen.
I personally would like to see a system where 15k armour/FOW armour is unlocked for you PvP characters once you have got it in PvP. This would provide a compromise between the two sides. However, I know it won't happen as it's too sensitive an issue for the devs to solve in any way.

=HT=Ingram · Nov 01, 2005, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I play both PvP and PvE with a RP character build and a PVP character build...

with the attrib refund removed this is so easy now to manipulate builds for this purpose that it is rare you have to recreate a RP build for any reason. I recreate my PvP all the time for differering reasons... But I have found that sometimes it is nice to have a PvE in tombs that is well built... Especially if they are using some really good acquired items, not available in the PvP menu. IE "some" of the green weapon combos. Note I say some... not all. many green weapon combos are not worth taking into Tombs. Others are... depends on the build you are using...

If you use your PvE build in tombs and go to a Vault Crafter in some future date, it serves as another badge of honor for a PvE character. as they are showing they are a hybrid of both by having Hall armor...

but whatever... to PvP it makes zero difference, except to do it if you want to spend some faction that you have no other way to spend... How many of you guys have everything unlocked now and find that you have your faction maxed? wouldn't it be nice to have another faction sink to play with? I know many of the high rank PvPers have been saying that recently...

That was the only reason we were talking about things to do in the vault.

Also mentioned were mini games to gamble faction with for prizes (Remember the old diablo 2 gamble vendor? lol), and observer mode options, while in there...

NatalieD · Nov 02, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kampfkeks

Some folks should be honest. They don't really want this armor, but instead they want everything just because in their opinion they are superior to PVE Players. They are the better part of the mankind in their thinking.

I'd like to know why you say that. If you could quote some people saying things that imply that, that would be perfect.

Because, to be honest, I'm seeing none of that and quite a bit of the opposite - elitist PVE players hating on PVP players for some reason.

Loviatar · Nov 02, 2005, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by NatalieD

I'd like to know why you say that. If you could quote some people saying things that imply that, that would be perfect.

Because, to be honest, I'm seeing none of that and quite a bit of the opposite - elitist PVE players hating on PVP players for some reason.

hi

i am completely PVE with a long documented live and let live policy.

having said that i would have to go back through many posts by certain members (some banned for extreme examples of that mindset) but a commonly acceptable term used often here and other sites for the pve crown is a bunch of whineing carebear grindmonkeys who are not smart or able to play up to pvp standards.

after months of that it is not surprising that some backlash is occuring.

as for me i say you to yours and me to mine with peace

edit for quoted example

Quote:

The problem with guild wars is many fold. A lot of the people who play it are grindmonkey carebears that think it's WoW2: Free Edition. Unfortunatly, A.Net idiotically tryed to cator to these apes

Quote:

If A.Net wants to listen to the complacent, stupid, grindmonkey crowd